Stop using banks?
 

From time to time, I see comments from members who have stopped dealing with banks altogether, or at the very least, have cut way back on their usage of them. Just thought I'd start a serious discussion on the various advantages of doing this, the potential drawbacks, the alternatives to using banks in today's world (buying/stashing PMs being an obvious one). Let's hear the pros & cons.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

One option is probably the old envelope system. Cash your paycheck at the employer's bank, then distribute your cash into a system of envelopes: groceries, fuel, utilities, rent/mortgage, luxuries, savings, etc. You'd have to budget for this ahead of time, and stick strictly to not spending more than you have in that envelope until the next paycheck.

One problem that comes to mind is that some bills can't be paid by cash... some companies "require" a check or ACH or something like that. You can probably get by here using a money order, which will cost a buck or so each time.

Of course a credit card is still an option... but otherwise it's probably cash and money orders, and PMs if you feel like dealing in those and can find folks who will deal with you.

Even if you don't pull completely out of banks and checking accounts as some folks have done, you could always just pull as much as you can stand from your account, just leaving enough for the monthly bills, and store the rest in other forms.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

GETTING CLOSE TO IT... CAN'T FULLY UNPLUG FROM MATRIX.:rant:

Re: Stop using banks?
 

I'm hoping SLV weighs in on this, as he is "bank-free". I've been wanting to do this, but have been putting it off, because of the size of the task.

:shocked_ma:

Re: Stop using banks?
 

I was bank free 25 years ago when I didn't have any money. I wrote a check for a $3 meal, the check bounced. My bank charged me $15 for insuffiencent funds. After that, I didn't use the bank anymore. LOL
It's silly to keep more than a few thousand "under your mattress". Have multiple accounts all over town. It's unlikely all of the banks fold at the same time.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

It is impossible... practically. We have been keeping one savings account open ($1 balance) at my employer's bank so that we could receive any equity from the sale of our farm. Now that we aren't selling we have talked about closing the account, but here are the sticking points.

1. What if we get a check from a family member across country, and it is drawn on a bank without branches in our state?

2. Some banks actually charge $5 to cash a check drawn on their bank! Instead we have been depositing these checks to avoid the fee.

We use USPS money orders (because they can be cashed at the Post Office... later in the day at larger post offices for larger amounts). You have to make sure that you stay under $3,000 per issue (drive around to different post offices if necessary) in order to avoid government reporting. Also the cap is $1,000 / USPS M.O.

Even though it is impossible in the purest sense, our transition has brought a great measure of peace to our lives. We are bank free on the deposit AND credit side of things (debt free). It is truly liberating and I highly recommend it even if you have to keep a savings account open at a local bank (always LOCAL -- avoid large national banks).

I've been reading Thoreau's "Walden", and it is completely transforming the way I think about life (READ IT -- WITH A MARKER). I feel like I am at a pivotal point in my life -- a time I will look back on as "the moment" that made all the difference. It has been a process that began for me in 2004 and is now coming to culmination. GIM has had a big part in it, but I feel like I have "graduated" from GIM and it is time to move on. I'll still pop in now and then, but I won't be contributing as much as I have in the past (part of this is because we got rid of internet service at home -- this was a big step in my journey).

We don't just want to be "bank free"; we want to be "money free". We are negotiating the purchase of a 100 year-old barn on one acre of fertile Wisconsin soil. We are planning on drilling a well and converting the barn into an efficient and HUMBLE house - no electricity, running water by gravity tank only (filled by hand pump). We will build our house on the barn foundation (basement) using all of the materials from the disassembled barn (from the wood floor to the tin roof). My wife is actually excited about the challenge of cooking in a wood-fired stove/oven. We are saving up the cash to make this transition now, and we hope to make the move sometime in 2009. We want NO BILLS -- nobody should have a monthly claim on my life. Unfortunately the singular sticking point is property/vehicle taxes. Additionally, although we can grow all of our own food and barter locally for deficiencies, we cannot make gasoline for our van. (Wasn't there a link on GIM a while back abou a man who was part of a self-sufficient colony and even they found that it was necessary to do some manual labor to raise the money for property taxes?) We are planning on organizing a local Ag-Swap which will meet monthly to make deals on swapping locally produced goods/services.

The name of our place will be "Walden Manor". It will be over the front door along with our family motto: "Where the less you need, the more you have." Theoretically, the man who NEEDS nothing HAS everything. Consumerism preaches the opposite: the man who has everything needs nothing. This is a lie. The man who has everything always needs "more". Money only matters to people who are obliged by their lifestyle to give it to another.

If your glass is half empty, perhaps you need a glass that is half as large. Or better yet, learn to drink directly from the fountain of life, and you won't have the burden of a leaky glass.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

That sounds wonderful, SLV.

We use a credit union for monthly bills, but are inclined to move in a 'fewer bills' direction. After the juniors really pop I want to get off the grid for power. Solar is getting better all the time, and I hope the time when it won't take too big a bite of our investments will coincide with a good system. I want to reroof (which is in this house's not too distant future anyway) with a solar collecting roofing material, and store the power overnight as compressed air using the air car system. Add roof water collection and sufficient storage, our garden and hens, and our monthly needs will be very much diminished.

We will still have taxes, plus items like coffee and beef to buy. But it will feel a lot better.

I like being out of the banking system mostly because I think it is very rickety and risky right now. Plus no account keeps up with inflation these days, but PM does.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

the us is a "market based society".

to be part of society you have to be part of the market.

to be part of the market you have to have a bank account.

no bank account and you are fringe and will have to may more to be part of the society in terms of time and money. not really worth it to go bankless in my opinion.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

Glad you could check in, SLV. I need to run now but will be going over this thoroughly later today.

I have a copy of "Walden" but have never read it. Guess I need to pull it out and get to it. :smile:

Re: Stop using banks?
 

Consider me impressed. Even grateful.

Your endeavor IS profound and inspiring.

My hat's off to you sir.

Stop using banks?
 

who ya callin fringe there dog? thought I saw your pawprint around here somewhere..

Re: Stop using banks?
 

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

True, but so what? We are not trying to blend in with communists.
If you are not fringe, you are SOOOO freaking screwed. :no_ma:



I don't think anyone covered drawbacks of having money in the bank. Here is a few.

* Government knows how much you make/spend and where you spend it
* If you withdraw cash, no matter how little, you are breaking the law if the government says so. "Structuring" is vaguely defined and illegal.
* The only way to avoid "structuring" is to withdraw no less than 3k at a time, in which case a record is kept. You can get audited for dealing in cash.
* The money doesn't legally belong to you. If you fall under vague definition of 'domestic terrorist' (you do), your money can be transfered to Dept. Of Treasury.
* Creditors or IRS can put lien on your account
* you have to pay income tax, SS tax, and inflation on the money in the bank. (Most people, anyway. Doesn't apply to 0.001% that are familiar with Pete Hendrickson's research)

Re: Stop using banks?
 

You guys are killing me.

You CAN live without a bank.

Hell, 12 - 50 million mexicans do so INSIDE THE USA. THERE IS A HUGE CASH MARKET HERE IN THE USA.

You guys apparently just don't know where to shop (flea markets come to mind). And ANYONE who refuses to take cash? Take a close look at your USA currency. Says right on it 'good for all debt, public and private'. So if someone says they don't take cash, take your goods, tell them they EITHER take cash or you will be leaving their store WITH YOUR GOODS. It's their choice. If they refuse cash, they will find it VERY difficult to have you arrested or even press charges against you.

Oh, and car tags? Insurance? Property Taxes? Not if you don't own or don't BORROW MONEY to purchase any of those things.

Property taxes CAN be a boogar to get around, but an allodial deed will do the trick. GETTING an allodial deed CAN be difficult if not down right impossible in some locales. Not so difficult in others.

Plus, you want to live without a bank? MOVE OUT OF THE USA.

LOADS OF COUNTRIES citizens live their whole life without a bank account, a ssn, etc.

It just depends on how serious you are about being 'out of sight'...

Com'on folks, get a LITTLE creative.

Read "Living well on practically nothing" written by Ed Romney.
IT WILL give you a whole new perspective.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

i'm not calling anyone fringe. this dog hates US banks.

but my point is that while you CAN drop off the bank grid it is a pain in the ass and your transaction costs rise substantially in terms of TIME and FEES and BRAINDAMAGE. Plus when you go to those check cashing places they make you put your paw print on the front and it makes me feel like a convict before i have even had a chance to shit inside their office and get thrown out for being a dirty dog.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

ok, this thread is not only fringe, but pushing lunatic fringe.

my kind of thread, by the way...

There are places in India where I could live for two months on one gold rooster. (about 2 tenths of an ounce). live like a king for three times that. I often look at my stash and say, "why wait?"

no banks? ur moving outside of society. period.

good luck padre..

Re: Stop using banks?
 

My neighbor goes to Viet Nam every year. He takes loads of what you and I would call 'normal' medications with him. Aspirin, tylenol, etc. Plus a few his doctor gives him free samples for.

He has lived there as long as six months, FREE. WHY? Cause he's the 'local medicine man'. His medical knowledge is fairly low. But compared to the people who he lives with, he's a freakin genius. He's 65 and retired. He's been going there for over twenty years, as he was injured on the job, so he DID get some exposure to the medical system here in the US.

It really DOES NOT require a ton of money to live well. And it SURE AS HELL don't require a bank.

You just have to CHOOSE WELL where you live.

I happen to not like two seasons. Monsoon and ALMOST MONSOON. Which is KIND OF what Viet Nam is.

But, there are some islands in the Pacific... nuff said.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

BANKS ARE LIKE 7'11'S ONLY ITS TO THE OWNERS CONVIENCE. MUCH AS PORTRAYED VIA THE MR.DRY$DALE IN THE BEVERLEY HILLBILLYS. :deal::evil:

Re: Stop using banks?
 

:top:

I would be glad to know that at least one person on GIM would be brave enough to join me on my quest for TRUE independence -- total liberty from the monetary system and materialistic culture of American consumerism.

PS - I couldn't/wouldn't do this without my wonderful wife who was raised in a rickety old farm house heated with wood. She also grew up eating garden vegetables and venison and making all her clothes. You could say that because of her I have a good head start.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

Hey SLV,

Northern IL here, sounds up my alley, once I get enough money for land. Wasn't looking at Wisconsin(politically speaking, love the climate), but was thinking about which path to take (electrically speaking). Also thinking about whether I should go with a oil powered diesel tractor or scythes and draft animals. Would like to see how going the low tec way works out.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

What happens when a big player asks for your EIN, or issues you a check? Then you turn around and have it cashed at the check cashing place? Do you just tell them in your suit and black tie, you're in between banks at that time? This is all well and good if you're selling hay to folks, but what if you need to close a big deal with a megacorp? How do you get paid playing the game with the big boys? They frown on this sort of thing. And any kind of hint of skidishness will kill the deal. How can I deposit thousands of dollars into my hands without a bank. Were talking 10K plus here.

Right, you can't. And if your above board, and doing well you take the money and pay taxes. If not, then you scheme behind the scenes.

And please don't tell me about that guy who took "Art Bars" in silver to get his payment. Go to a good paying gig and tell them their checks are worthless and say they have to pay in silver and see what kind of looks you get. I admire what you all hold dear, but when you play the game, you've gotta play the game.

Lets get some specifics on payment and bank avoidment, then I'll listen. Till then I'm stuffing their checks in the bank.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

Oxymoron. You are not 'doing well' if you are paying taxes under heavy progressive income tax system

Re: Stop using banks?
 

I know some people that work for this company . . .

https://www.netspend.com/

It's not a bank, it's not cash, somewhat in between.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

I think there were many from your generation who grew up in homes like this (my dad is 63 and he grew up on a farm with hand-pumped water in the kitchen and an outhouse - he remembers when electricity was brought to his farm). However, I'm 32 and my wife is 26. I don't think many our age have ANY clue about actually LIVING in contact with nature. Everything nowadays is so artificial. All of our "conveniences" merely isolate us from that which is real -- the natural world.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

I assume that the "no bank" advocates here also shun safe deposit boxes. So does that mean that you keep all of your assets (in whatever form, be it FRNs, PM, preps, etc.) with you at home? If so, doesn't that become really imprudent if you have a lot of assets?

Dymaxion

Re: Stop using banks?
 

Of what purpose are assets? They give us something to worry about, something to repair and maintain; they tie us down. Thoreau has a great section on "furniture" and how that the best thing that could happen to any individual while moving is to find that along the road there is a gate too narrow to permit the passage of his cart with his "furniture".

Do we "need" assets? Some do in order to maintain and defend their lifestyle. Air, water, food, shelter, fuel (warmth), and protection - these are the things all mankind needs in common. Having provided these things, a man needs nothing else. And the man who needs nothing is infinitely wealthy. That man, who while having nothing needs nothing, will be as carefree as a meadowlark.

You can keep your assets - your ball and chain. I'd rather be so meek that no thief nor taxman would take any interest in my life. And being so I will truly live.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

That is very appealing, reasonable, and even noble, SLV. I admire your convictions and your apparent ability to follow them.

But "of what purpose are assets"? We can all define assets personally. Your barn, your fertile soin, your well, your air, water, and food, your excellent relationships and community -- these are all assets with great value.

Personally, I am not yet ready or interested in heading off to the pond just yet. And I suspect that many here agree that assets like PMs and FRNs serve a crucial purpose.

So I'll rephrase my question: Does anyone that swears off banks -- and who still has an interest in having significant FRN / PM type assets (that is, ones that are easily destroyed or stolen) -- want to explain how they stay comfortable having everything they own of value under one roof?

Dymaxion

Re: Stop using banks?
 

*raises hand* Can I answer that question?

Sometimes, no matter how well you prepare, no matter how many contingencies you plan for, life throws you a curveball where you lose everything. It happens.

That said, what IS security?

I'm only 27, my "assets" are meager (I define assets differently than is defined here, but according to this definition of assets I have computer equipment, furniture, clothes, and a PM stash). Yes, I keep it all at home under one roof. No, I don't trust a bank to hold my PMs or even my birth certificate. I mitigate the risk of having it one place as best I can, with a fire-proof safe and some weapons (no I won't tell you what kind or how many).

I'd like to have it in multiple places, but I'd like those to be places *I* alone controlled and knew about. Since I don't own anything more than the property I'm living at (and that is mortgaged), my options are limited.

So how do I sleep at night? That's your question, right?

Simple: The most important asset of all, knowledge, is something that you CAN'T lose (well, barring Alzheimers or some such). At least it can't be taken away from you forcibly or lost through negligence or acts of God, the way my house could be destroyed by a tornado or I could lose everything tangible in other ways.

Do I like having my assets? Yeah. Especially the PMs. Gives you some peace of mind, having a "net worth" even if it's relatively infinitesimal. But if I lost them all, although that would suck, I know I could build it all back up again if I had to, because I have the knowledge of how to build wealth.

I'm not financially independent, but I'm well on my way thanks to a lot of planning and persistence and a little luck. The knowledge that I have gained of how to live below my means, build a business from the ground up, and how to push yourself towards excellence mean far, far more to me than my small PM stash, and infinitely more to me than my furniture or clothing. Just like the small amount of training I've gotten (I plan to get more) on how to use firearms is far more valuable to me than the actual guns themselves -- by themselves, the guns might even do me more harm than good just like by itself having a lot of money can do you more harm than good.

I'm not sure if that answers your question, but if your question is how do I sleep at night with everything in one place -- well without the knowledge of how to replace what I have I think that I wouldn't sleep well even if it was in 5 or 50 places.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

Actually, I think I'm doing well. I deposit checks in a bank from jobs I do, and or complete. Yes I pay taxes. I don't own a cash business. So in your view I would have to go to a 100% cash based business at this time to do "well". That would be nice, but I don't think I could hack it really. Giving out my EIN and cashing checks has done too well so far.

What would you suggest for someone who does business with others that require EINs and bank wires?

Re: Stop using banks?
 

Short of career change, I don't know... I am in a similar situation, been thinking about changing the way I do things so that I get more cash customers. I've been less than eager to take on new corporate clients because they move me to higher tax bracket, too little after-tax money for too much work

Many music teachers, waiters, etc. do better than average lawyer or doctor

Re: Stop using banks?
 

To add: Yes, I use banks. I just don't trust them with anything physical. For one I don't wish to "state" what my possessions are for the purpose of insurance and for two I don't know that I'd have access to the box when I needed it. But they are useful and convenient for issuing and receiving payments. Yes, I know that means the government knows how much I earn and from where. I also pay taxes. No, I don't like it. What can ya do? /shrug The alternative is too much effort and stress (considering it's illegal - evading taxes I mean. Not that taxes are just, but that is what you would be charged with)

Did you know the income tax started at 1%? Talk about slippery slope.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

I think you can get the utility of a bank (easy payments to people, easy way to receive money) without giving them more than a pittance. Anything you don't want to be seen purchasing you pay for with cash. It's a lot harder to live the Walden lifestyle these days. I think you can approximate it though; all you have to do is be frugal, convert your lifestyle to one that has minimal expenses and then save up a lot of money for inevitable property taxes etc.

In that way you get the free time to think about life without the hassle.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

wallew said: What planet are you from again??

Look, banks make certain aspects of life's transactions easier. Do I trust them? No, not too much. I'm working to keep as little cash as possible in theoretical electron form, but all of those little electronic pulses make getting through city life a lot easier. Besides, it isn't just fringe marginalization that is the danger; sticking out, being the tallest blade of grass, that is dangerous, and more dangerous in the city than in the country. So, I use the bank for what I need (as a waystation to most of my debt), and move more of my transactions to cash, which, as wallew mentions, is the only way to shop the flea markets and garage sales.

SLV, my hat is off to you and your wife, because your goals (and your chances of reaching them) are so admirable.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

If you want little, you will have much!
If you want much, you will end up with little!

Because I want little, I have much. Do I use banks? Yes! The bank gets my disability checks, I take out the little I need to live on (about a third) and the rest just lays there being used by the bank to loan to people who want much and will die trying to pay for it all. They are always wanting me to do this or that with my money. Last time I just told the gal, doesn't make much difference, whatever interest deal they try to make me, it won't beat inflation. That gets the deer in the headlight stare, but she did kind of smile and say no more.

Do I worry about loosing what's in the bank? Only a little, because in the end I'll die and what difference will it make? Good luck to anyone who decides to leave the bank behind.

Re: Stop using banks?
 

I was on FDIC's website yesterday and signed up for 'Special Alerts' email. Supposedly, I'll receive alerts about banks in trouble. I won't pass judgment till I have a period of time to evaluate it.....

Re: Stop using banks?
 

Ghost, where exactly did you sign up? Their site is as opaque as every other Federal site.


Found it! http://www.fdic.gov/about/subscriptions/index.html